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	<title>Comments on: The Obligatory Folksonomy Post</title>
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	<description>What We Are Learning About Online Learning...Online</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Feldstein</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Feldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2005 04:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-133</guid>
		<description>You wouldn&#039;t need to resort to controlled vocabularies like Dublin Core in order to make this work. You&#039;d just need to take tag discovery tools up a level to tag category discovery. People could see, for example, that there&#039;s an art category prefix (e.g, art:whatever) just as they can see the list of tags themselves on del.icio.us now.

There are other tools people could develop to help the community with this, however. One would be a sort of taxonomy import/export/sharing tool that lets you share classification schemes the way OPML lets you share RSS subscription lists. &lt;a href=&quot;http://fxml.org&quot; title=&quot;FXML Home Page&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FXML&lt;/a&gt; (or &quot;faceted XML&quot;) would be a good candidate language for this sort of thing. (By the way, Drupal apparently already has an FXML export module.)

Another good idea would be a tool that lets you compare tags (or categories) to see how much they overlap. I recently &lt;a href=&quot;http://mfeldstein.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/tuning_folksonomies/&quot; title=&quot;Tuning Folksonomies&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;posted&lt;/a&gt; about this idea.

Anyway, the main goal is to give people a way to share not just tags but domains of usage for the tags. Self-discovery works on this level as well as on the existing del.icio.us-style level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wouldn&#8217;t need to resort to controlled vocabularies like Dublin Core in order to make this work. You&#8217;d just need to take tag discovery tools up a level to tag category discovery. People could see, for example, that there&#8217;s an art category prefix (e.g, art:whatever) just as they can see the list of tags themselves on del.icio.us now.</p>
<p>There are other tools people could develop to help the community with this, however. One would be a sort of taxonomy import/export/sharing tool that lets you share classification schemes the way OPML lets you share RSS subscription lists. <a href="http://fxml.org" title="FXML Home Page" rel="nofollow">FXML</a> (or &#8220;faceted XML&#8221;) would be a good candidate language for this sort of thing. (By the way, Drupal apparently already has an FXML export module.)</p>
<p>Another good idea would be a tool that lets you compare tags (or categories) to see how much they overlap. I recently <a href="http://mfeldstein.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/tuning_folksonomies/" title="Tuning Folksonomies" rel="nofollow">posted</a> about this idea.</p>
<p>Anyway, the main goal is to give people a way to share not just tags but domains of usage for the tags. Self-discovery works on this level as well as on the existing del.icio.us-style level.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Feinblatt</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Feinblatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 02:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-132</guid>
		<description>&quot;But there are ways to deal with this&quot; . . . . hummmm, what ways? Seems like we&#039;re back in the hands of the dublin core folks. We need to find a mechanism that &quot;blends&quot; (what an operative word nowadays) the top down tags with the bottom up ones. Actually, it may not be &quot;blend&quot; at all - we just need to be able to operate on that thin line in the middle at which the two converge. I know that the semantic web has received a lot of bashing recently, but wasn&#039;t it conceived with this idea in mind?

Regarding Beth&#039;s comments about Blackboard, SLN, del.icio.us and &quot;shared references,&quot;  I think her instincts are correct: the LMSs don&#039;t feel quite right. This is because they have not been designed with collaborative activity at their core. del.icio.us was created with public sharing at center stage. It&#039;s not a question of &quot;can it accomodate external references or shared links&quot; - it&#039;s more a question of &quot;how do we use its native capabilites productively in an academic environment.&quot; Even though we may ask our students to use the tag &quot;class:ha112_105,&quot; the resultant agglomeration of links &lt;b&gt;feels&lt;/b&gt; more collaborative and less orchestrated because it is occurs outside of the behemoth of the &quot;system.&quot; At least it does to me. Now, the question really is, will our students fall for it? Afterall, it&#039;s just another assignment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But there are ways to deal with this&#8221; . . . . hummmm, what ways? Seems like we&#8217;re back in the hands of the dublin core folks. We need to find a mechanism that &#8220;blends&#8221; (what an operative word nowadays) the top down tags with the bottom up ones. Actually, it may not be &#8220;blend&#8221; at all &#8211; we just need to be able to operate on that thin line in the middle at which the two converge. I know that the semantic web has received a lot of bashing recently, but wasn&#8217;t it conceived with this idea in mind?</p>
<p>Regarding Beth&#8217;s comments about Blackboard, SLN, del.icio.us and &#8220;shared references,&#8221;  I think her instincts are correct: the LMSs don&#8217;t feel quite right. This is because they have not been designed with collaborative activity at their core. del.icio.us was created with public sharing at center stage. It&#8217;s not a question of &#8220;can it accomodate external references or shared links&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s more a question of &#8220;how do we use its native capabilites productively in an academic environment.&#8221; Even though we may ask our students to use the tag &#8220;class:ha112_105,&#8221; the resultant agglomeration of links <b>feels</b> more collaborative and less orchestrated because it is occurs outside of the behemoth of the &#8220;system.&#8221; At least it does to me. Now, the question really is, will our students fall for it? Afterall, it&#8217;s just another assignment.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Feldstein</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Feldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 06:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-131</guid>
		<description>OK, suppose you have a tag labeled &quot;donatello.&quot; You want to see what serendipity will bring you, so you look to see what other images have the &quot;donatello&quot; tag on them. You get back a bunch of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoons. Not very interesting. So you add the separate &quot;art&quot; tag to your search. Maybe now you get cartoons of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles painting or, alternatively, a velvet painting of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

However, suppose you have a tag that specifies that what you mean by &quot;donatello&quot; is the name of an artist and not the name of a cartoon character, e.g., &quot;artist:donatello.&quot; Now you get some of his obscure works, some portraits of him, articles about him, etc. In this case, the serendipity is interesting. On the other hand, if you actually were &lt;b&gt;looking&lt;/b&gt; for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles stuff, you could use the &quot;cartoon:donatello&quot; tag. By using the pair, identical tags (e.g., &quot;donatello&quot;) can be separated for different purposes (e.g., people bookmarking information about art and people bookmarking information about cartoons).

Naturally, it only works if people agree to use the same first half of the tag to specify the category, which requires some organization and consensus (as opposed to just using the straight &quot;donatello&quot; tag, which requires no coordination at all to get the serendipity thing to happen). But there are ways to deal with this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, suppose you have a tag labeled &#8220;donatello.&#8221; You want to see what serendipity will bring you, so you look to see what other images have the &#8220;donatello&#8221; tag on them. You get back a bunch of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoons. Not very interesting. So you add the separate &#8220;art&#8221; tag to your search. Maybe now you get cartoons of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles painting or, alternatively, a velvet painting of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.</p>
<p>However, suppose you have a tag that specifies that what you mean by &#8220;donatello&#8221; is the name of an artist and not the name of a cartoon character, e.g., &#8220;artist:donatello.&#8221; Now you get some of his obscure works, some portraits of him, articles about him, etc. In this case, the serendipity is interesting. On the other hand, if you actually were <b>looking</b> for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles stuff, you could use the &#8220;cartoon:donatello&#8221; tag. By using the pair, identical tags (e.g., &#8220;donatello&#8221;) can be separated for different purposes (e.g., people bookmarking information about art and people bookmarking information about cartoons).</p>
<p>Naturally, it only works if people agree to use the same first half of the tag to specify the category, which requires some organization and consensus (as opposed to just using the straight &#8220;donatello&#8221; tag, which requires no coordination at all to get the serendipity thing to happen). But there are ways to deal with this.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth Harris</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 06:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-130</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still trying to sort all this out.

In Eric&#039;s method, you accumulate references found by the student that pertain to a specific course or even content area of a course. This is similar to the &quot;External Links&quot; section of a Bb course (but the students can&#039;t contribute -- Is there a group page that you could do this with in Bb I wonder?). It is also similar to the &quot;Shared References&quot; area of the SLN template (which can&#039;t be divided into folders or content areas (as in Bb), but which students CAN contribute to).

So, how is this method (tagging with class: ha112) different  or better? Something about it feels more interesting, but I can&#039;t put my finger on what it is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still trying to sort all this out.</p>
<p>In Eric&#8217;s method, you accumulate references found by the student that pertain to a specific course or even content area of a course. This is similar to the &#8220;External Links&#8221; section of a Bb course (but the students can&#8217;t contribute &#8212; Is there a group page that you could do this with in Bb I wonder?). It is also similar to the &#8220;Shared References&#8221; area of the SLN template (which can&#8217;t be divided into folders or content areas (as in Bb), but which students CAN contribute to).</p>
<p>So, how is this method (tagging with class: ha112) different  or better? Something about it feels more interesting, but I can&#8217;t put my finger on what it is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: eric feinblatt</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>eric feinblatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-129</guid>
		<description>I think I get it . . . by adding the colon you separate the &quot;class&quot; classification from the &quot;community&quot; classification. Is that right? Seems like an excellent idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I get it . . . by adding the colon you separate the &#8220;class&#8221; classification from the &#8220;community&#8221; classification. Is that right? Seems like an excellent idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Feldstein</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Feldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-128</guid>
		<description>What I like about tag prefixes (e.g., class:ha112_1205 or community:artlovers) is that it gives you a full-fledged faceted classification system. You don&#039;t get this by adding more flat tags (e.g., ha112_105) to the tag soup. To get an idea of how powerful a faceted classification system can be, check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colon_classification&quot; title=&quot;Wikipedia Entry on Colon Classification&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this Wikipedia entry&lt;/a&gt; on the colon classification system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I like about tag prefixes (e.g., class:ha112_1205 or community:artlovers) is that it gives you a full-fledged faceted classification system. You don&#8217;t get this by adding more flat tags (e.g., ha112_105) to the tag soup. To get an idea of how powerful a faceted classification system can be, check out <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colon_classification" title="Wikipedia Entry on Colon Classification" rel="nofollow">this Wikipedia entry</a> on the colon classification system.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Feinblatt</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Feinblatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-127</guid>
		<description>I think there&#039;s a way to tame the intrinsic unwieldiness of folsksonomies, and make them valuable to learning environments without loosing the serendipity that we are all sensitive to.
If you drill down one level further than Michael&#039;s &quot;arthistory&quot; tag and use, instead, a tag like &quot;ha112_105&quot;  which identifies a specific class  then you can begin to accumulate all of the references that teacher and students pull together that might pertain to the particular course of study. Technorati would pick up the ha112_105 blog posts as well as the flickr images and all of the furl and del.icio.us links that the class find useful. 19 students who explore the web&#039;s resources can come up with an enormous amount of &quot;conventional&quot; and &quot;idiosyncratic&quot; material stitched together with the &quot;ha112_105 tag&quot; to build a collective class web reference &quot;database.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s a way to tame the intrinsic unwieldiness of folsksonomies, and make them valuable to learning environments without loosing the serendipity that we are all sensitive to.<br />
If you drill down one level further than Michael&#8217;s &#8220;arthistory&#8221; tag and use, instead, a tag like &#8220;ha112_105&#8243;  which identifies a specific class  then you can begin to accumulate all of the references that teacher and students pull together that might pertain to the particular course of study. Technorati would pick up the ha112_105 blog posts as well as the flickr images and all of the furl and del.icio.us links that the class find useful. 19 students who explore the web&#8217;s resources can come up with an enormous amount of &#8220;conventional&#8221; and &#8220;idiosyncratic&#8221; material stitched together with the &#8220;ha112_105 tag&#8221; to build a collective class web reference &#8220;database.&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Feldstein</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Feldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-126</guid>
		<description>Sorry, my language wasn&#039;t clear. What I meant by &quot;students of art history&quot; was not people taking a class in the history of art but rather the broader category of people who have an interest in the kind of art that hangs in museums. Art afficionados. Imagine if there were a subsection of Flickr called ArtFlickr. Anyone could post anything they want in it, but people are discouraged from posting, say, their family vacation pictures. That way, when you looked at all the entries for the &quot;France&quot; tag, you may get French Impressionist art, pictures of pyramid at the Louvre, and pictures of French cave art, but not pictures of Hank and Selma at Euro Disney.

Tag prefixes such as &quot;art:&quot; could accomplish the same thing as ArtFlickr, with the added benefit that you could add an &quot;ignore prefixes&quot; check box on the tag search function, so if you really wanted to see &lt;b&gt;everything&lt;/b&gt; that anybody tags with &quot;France&quot;, you still can.

To get an idea of how this might work, try browsing around &lt;a href=&quot;http://photo.net&quot; title=&quot;Photo.net&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Photo.net&lt;/a&gt; gallery and imagine adding folksonomy tags to it. (The Photo.net gallery could be considered a rough analog to ArtFlickr for photographers.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, my language wasn&#8217;t clear. What I meant by &#8220;students of art history&#8221; was not people taking a class in the history of art but rather the broader category of people who have an interest in the kind of art that hangs in museums. Art afficionados. Imagine if there were a subsection of Flickr called ArtFlickr. Anyone could post anything they want in it, but people are discouraged from posting, say, their family vacation pictures. That way, when you looked at all the entries for the &#8220;France&#8221; tag, you may get French Impressionist art, pictures of pyramid at the Louvre, and pictures of French cave art, but not pictures of Hank and Selma at Euro Disney.</p>
<p>Tag prefixes such as &#8220;art:&#8221; could accomplish the same thing as ArtFlickr, with the added benefit that you could add an &#8220;ignore prefixes&#8221; check box on the tag search function, so if you really wanted to see <b>everything</b> that anybody tags with &#8220;France&#8221;, you still can.</p>
<p>To get an idea of how this might work, try browsing around <a href="http://photo.net" title="Photo.net" rel="nofollow">Photo.net</a> gallery and imagine adding folksonomy tags to it. (The Photo.net gallery could be considered a rough analog to ArtFlickr for photographers.)</p>
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		<title>By: Beth Harris</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Oh, my other point was that what is fun about Flickr is that it is like a video game that allows for it&#039;s &quot;relatively freeform interaction.&quot; Not a lot of fun if the only players are art historians...
(see http://www.giantant.com/antenna/archive/2004_12.php3#000952)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, my other point was that what is fun about Flickr is that it is like a video game that allows for it&#8217;s &#8220;relatively freeform interaction.&#8221; Not a lot of fun if the only players are art historians&#8230;<br />
(see <a href="http://www.giantant.com/antenna/archive/2004_12.php3#000952" rel="nofollow">http://www.giantant.com/antenna/archive/2004_12.php3#000952</a>)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Beth Harris</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/the_obligatory_folksonomy_post/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://1418959028#comment-124</guid>
		<description>I posted this comment earlier, but I think it got lost, so here goes again...

I&#039;m not sure I agree that a good collection of users would be art history students (in Flickr, for example). I like the idea of the cross-disciplinary and inside/outside academy connections that could be made. So, how would one create a useful community??

Anyway, too many art historians gives me the heebie-jeebies, always has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I posted this comment earlier, but I think it got lost, so here goes again&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I agree that a good collection of users would be art history students (in Flickr, for example). I like the idea of the cross-disciplinary and inside/outside academy connections that could be made. So, how would one create a useful community??</p>
<p>Anyway, too many art historians gives me the heebie-jeebies, always has.</p>
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