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	<title>Comments on: Thomson Suing Zotero</title>
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	<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/</link>
	<description>What We Are Learning About Online Learning...Online</description>
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		<title>By: Boxing with a beehive &#171; Chris Coppola&#039;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1247</link>
		<dc:creator>Boxing with a beehive &#171; Chris Coppola&#039;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1247</guid>
		<description>[...] behavior using bogus patents. Recently we&#8217;re seeing signs of a similar swarm related to the Thomson-Zotero [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] behavior using bogus patents. Recently we&#8217;re seeing signs of a similar swarm related to the Thomson-Zotero [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1246</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1246</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t checked up on Endnote in many years. Took one look at their pricing -- oh my God, two hundred and fifty dollars or more! -- and said, fuck them. If they think they can charge rapacious prices today for work they did years ago, they have another thing coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t checked up on Endnote in many years. Took one look at their pricing &#8212; oh my God, two hundred and fifty dollars or more! &#8212; and said, fuck them. If they think they can charge rapacious prices today for work they did years ago, they have another thing coming.</p>
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		<title>By: Endnote spurned &#171; Picking Up Sticks</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Endnote spurned &#171; Picking Up Sticks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1245</guid>
		<description>[...] the Center for New Media and History won&#8217;t have much to worry about.  However, according to Michael Feldstein the lawsuit might have some merit.  The crucial issue revolves around Endnote&#8217;s styles and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Center for New Media and History won&#8217;t have much to worry about.  However, according to Michael Feldstein the lawsuit might have some merit.  The crucial issue revolves around Endnote&#8217;s styles and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RIAA Redux? &#171; EduBits</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator>RIAA Redux? &#171; EduBits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1244</guid>
		<description>[...] significant voices in the ed-tech world think Thomson Reuters might have a legitimate claim (e.g., Michael Feldstein). Even if Thomson Reuters has a legitimate claim, the lawsuit seems a little heavy-handed as a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] significant voices in the ed-tech world think Thomson Reuters might have a legitimate claim (e.g., Michael Feldstein). Even if Thomson Reuters has a legitimate claim, the lawsuit seems a little heavy-handed as a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Fogel</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Fogel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1243</guid>
		<description>Re your phrase &quot;steal the labor&quot;:

Investment of labor is not a guarantee of return.  The fact that somebody put in a lot of hard work does not mean they should be unquestioningly handed a monopoly on the results of that work -- especially when the results can be shared at zero cost, as is possible on the Internet.

The traditional justification for handing out that monopoly is not a moral one (i.e., not &quot;Someone worked hard so they should get paid!&quot;) but rather a systemic one: if we don&#039;t hand them that monopoly now, then others may be less motivated to do similar work in the future.

That&#039;s an interesting idea, but it&#039;s also testable, and so far it&#039;s not looking like it really holds up.  Which makes sense, considering that these monopolies (copyrights, that is) were originally invented &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; because of the systemic motivation described above, but for an entirely different reason: to subsidize the up-front costs of distribution in the pre-Internet era.  We&#039;ve romanticized the history a lot since then, which is probably one reason the word &quot;steal&quot; is often used even though &quot;copy&quot; or &quot;compatibly match an interface&quot; would be more correct.

Thomson Reuter needs to find a business model that doesn&#039;t rely on restricting other parties from constructing compatibility interfaces, that&#039;s all.  If they don&#039;t find such a business model, then they&#039;ll go out of business.  This is what I would expect to happen to me if I ran a business based on faulty assumptions about my ability to restrict what others do, and there&#039;s no reason that shouldn&#039;t hold true for TR or anyone else as well.

(They might argue that the rules have been changed on them in the middle of the game, and to some degree that&#039;s true... But the Internet is hardly news at this point, and the rules changed for everyone else too.  You can&#039;t sue the future.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re your phrase &#8220;steal the labor&#8221;:</p>
<p>Investment of labor is not a guarantee of return.  The fact that somebody put in a lot of hard work does not mean they should be unquestioningly handed a monopoly on the results of that work &#8212; especially when the results can be shared at zero cost, as is possible on the Internet.</p>
<p>The traditional justification for handing out that monopoly is not a moral one (i.e., not &#8220;Someone worked hard so they should get paid!&#8221;) but rather a systemic one: if we don&#8217;t hand them that monopoly now, then others may be less motivated to do similar work in the future.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s an interesting idea, but it&#8217;s also testable, and so far it&#8217;s not looking like it really holds up.  Which makes sense, considering that these monopolies (copyrights, that is) were originally invented <em>not</em> because of the systemic motivation described above, but for an entirely different reason: to subsidize the up-front costs of distribution in the pre-Internet era.  We&#8217;ve romanticized the history a lot since then, which is probably one reason the word &#8220;steal&#8221; is often used even though &#8220;copy&#8221; or &#8220;compatibly match an interface&#8221; would be more correct.</p>
<p>Thomson Reuter needs to find a business model that doesn&#8217;t rely on restricting other parties from constructing compatibility interfaces, that&#8217;s all.  If they don&#8217;t find such a business model, then they&#8217;ll go out of business.  This is what I would expect to happen to me if I ran a business based on faulty assumptions about my ability to restrict what others do, and there&#8217;s no reason that shouldn&#8217;t hold true for TR or anyone else as well.</p>
<p>(They might argue that the rules have been changed on them in the middle of the game, and to some degree that&#8217;s true&#8230; But the Internet is hardly news at this point, and the rules changed for everyone else too.  You can&#8217;t sue the future.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce D'Arcus</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1242</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce D'Arcus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1242</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m the creator of CSL, the open format that TR alleges Zotero converts Endnote style files into. So I have knowledge about the background here.

There are two issues here. First, there is the question of the legal (and, as you wish to explore, ethical) issue around the ability to read Endnote style files. I really don&#039;t think there is any basis to argue this either legally or ethically wrong, any more than it would be to say its wrong for any word-processor other that Microsoft Word to read .doc and .dot files. To allow a company to claim ownership in this way would be clearly anti-competitive, and anti-consumer. TR has no leg to stand on.

The second is about the copyright issues that relate to particular file instances. I really don&#039;t want to get into a huge discussion about this because it&#039;s irrelevant here. TR has made claims here which are demonstrably false; Zotero does NOT distribute Endnote-derived style files. All CSL files in existence have been created entirely independently of Endnote.

So my point here is these two issues are completely orthogonal, both legally and ethically, but that you seem to be collapsing them in an unhelpful way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m the creator of CSL, the open format that TR alleges Zotero converts Endnote style files into. So I have knowledge about the background here.</p>
<p>There are two issues here. First, there is the question of the legal (and, as you wish to explore, ethical) issue around the ability to read Endnote style files. I really don&#8217;t think there is any basis to argue this either legally or ethically wrong, any more than it would be to say its wrong for any word-processor other that Microsoft Word to read .doc and .dot files. To allow a company to claim ownership in this way would be clearly anti-competitive, and anti-consumer. TR has no leg to stand on.</p>
<p>The second is about the copyright issues that relate to particular file instances. I really don&#8217;t want to get into a huge discussion about this because it&#8217;s irrelevant here. TR has made claims here which are demonstrably false; Zotero does NOT distribute Endnote-derived style files. All CSL files in existence have been created entirely independently of Endnote.</p>
<p>So my point here is these two issues are completely orthogonal, both legally and ethically, but that you seem to be collapsing them in an unhelpful way.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1241</guid>
		<description>The discussion seems to be developing well enough without me inserting myself gratuitously, though I do want to reflect on one aspect that strikes me as more than tangential.  I also would like to note that I agree with Robert&#039;s and Rick&#039;s observations, particularly Robert&#039;s Microsoft analogy.  My point draws on Michael&#039;s earlier comment: &quot;a company like Thomson Reuters is investing many person/hours into creating features that benefit academics.&quot;  Sorry; TR clearly isn&#039;t interested in the benefit of anyone but TR.  Moreover, they appear to be aggressively trying to ensure that only TR benefits.  Thanks for an insightful discussion, everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The discussion seems to be developing well enough without me inserting myself gratuitously, though I do want to reflect on one aspect that strikes me as more than tangential.  I also would like to note that I agree with Robert&#8217;s and Rick&#8217;s observations, particularly Robert&#8217;s Microsoft analogy.  My point draws on Michael&#8217;s earlier comment: &#8220;a company like Thomson Reuters is investing many person/hours into creating features that benefit academics.&#8221;  Sorry; TR clearly isn&#8217;t interested in the benefit of anyone but TR.  Moreover, they appear to be aggressively trying to ensure that only TR benefits.  Thanks for an insightful discussion, everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1240</guid>
		<description>Sorry--broke the quote in the above post.

The decision was:
&lt;blockquote&gt;[not to] actually convert styles due to copyright concerns&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry&#8211;broke the quote in the above post.</p>
<p>The decision was:</p>
<blockquote><p>[not to] actually convert styles due to copyright concerns</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1239</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1239</guid>
		<description>Given the open questions here and on the Sakai list, I thought I&#039;d give you a couple of links.

Zotero development takes place in public, so it is trivial to see that at least some of the Thomson Reuters claims are false.

&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.zotero.org/trac/changeset/2899&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This changeset add support for the undocumented EndNote style files&lt;/a&gt;.  After a &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/704&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;long discussion&lt;/a&gt;, it was decided&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the open questions here and on the Sakai list, I thought I&#8217;d give you a couple of links.</p>
<p>Zotero development takes place in public, so it is trivial to see that at least some of the Thomson Reuters claims are false.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.zotero.org/trac/changeset/2899" rel="nofollow">This changeset add support for the undocumented EndNote style files</a>.  After a <a href="https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/704" rel="nofollow">long discussion</a>, it was decided<br />
<blockquote></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://mfeldstein.com/thomson-suing-zotero/#comment-1238</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mfeldstein.com/?p=799#comment-1238</guid>
		<description>I am not a Zotero developer.  If I was, I would probably not be making public comment.  I am an occasional Zotero user who has submitted a patch or two and is fairly active on their forums.  I had been an occasional EndNote user as well, but my license has expired in the past year.  I had planned to renew it, but no longer will because of this case.  I am also one of the lead developers of a free/open source web-based reference manager.  I follow the development of reference managers (including both Zotero and EndNote) fairly closely.

Thank you for the heads up on the Sakai list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not a Zotero developer.  If I was, I would probably not be making public comment.  I am an occasional Zotero user who has submitted a patch or two and is fairly active on their forums.  I had been an occasional EndNote user as well, but my license has expired in the past year.  I had planned to renew it, but no longer will because of this case.  I am also one of the lead developers of a free/open source web-based reference manager.  I follow the development of reference managers (including both Zotero and EndNote) fairly closely.</p>
<p>Thank you for the heads up on the Sakai list.</p>
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